minervasolo: (redundant intimacy)
[personal profile] minervasolo
Been reading [livejournal.com profile] rionaleonhart's post about writing strengths/weaknesses. It's quite fun to analyse your own stuff, trying to avoid the Dunning-Kruger effect. I am, overall, quite happy with my writing, though I feel I lack any kind of concrete style, so this is a fairly self-deprecating list (I'm arrogant enough to start out assuming I'm perfect, and so this is me picking holes in that).

- I like to think I'm fairly good at both dialogue and description, but I can't do both at once. People have conversations in voids, or hang out in scenery with nothing but indirect speech to tide them over. Mushing together tends to end up with something along the lines of:

"Dialogue," he verbed, actioning.

"Dialogue dialogue," she verbed adverbly, actioning in scenery. "Dialogue."

He improbably-verbed, "Dialogue." He actioned.


Characters either hang in space for the entire the conversation, or accompany every sentence with some form of fidget. I also can't handle a conversation between more than three people; characters go completely mute. Council scenes in Greenhelm are a pain, because there are just too many characters, all of whom ought to be saying something relevant (often the same thing, or over the top of each other). This is why some of them tend to fall asleep, or sulk.

Also, it's the same actions over and over. All the show-don't-tell has left me with a group of actions that I use as shorthands for emotions, but they don't always show the same emotion (which is realistic, but when the one character uses the same action twice in one conversation for two different things, and another uses it in response for something else entirely, it's kinda meaningless). Characters are constantly tilting and cocking their heads, chewing on their lips, and tugging on their own hair. I have to watch myself to make sure I don't use any of them more than once in a section, and not by multiple different people in a chapter. All my characters are bald with terrible neck strain and ragged lips.

Also, improbable verbs and adjectives. Which, later, I can't remember why I used. Sometimes it's cool, but a lot of them time they just feel like typos. I just get sick of words like "said" and "asked".



- I lack patience for writing exercises. I just... write. If I'm suffering from writer's block, I do description of random things. If I'm suffering from laziness, I do dialogue only. If I'm facing a hard bit, I do something else. I'm lucky, because I almost never get writer's block, but I am an immensely lazy writer. If I challenged myself to write 500 words a day, I could, easily, though not always on the same project. But I'd rather watch TV.

- I don't like finishing things or declaring finished things done. I never submit things places because I'm waiting for some magical day when I'm done learning to write, and I can go back and edit things in the knowledge that at no point will I look back at them and wish they were different.

- My writing is derivative and easily influenced (like me!), but I view this kind of as a tool in itself now. I know where every influence came from, what effect it had, and how I changed it to make it mine (I'll do a breakdown of Greenhelm one day, and you'll be able to see what novels I was reading when). I'm the same with dreams, actually, and seeing how they've been influenced by recent thoughts and events. I'm not a deeply original person, and I know it.

- I love plotting, but suck at plots. I don't like endings, specifically, and I can't handle climaxes, so I take something deeply generic and shove it in instead.

- Though I'm fairly proficient at writing angst, it does bore me, and I do get carried away once I start. I don't like reading/watching it, particularly. Apparently I write depression well enough that people think I suffer from it, so, um. I enjoy writing about pragmatists, and about decisions they face. I like writing about anger, and fights, but I think I tend to do them too fast (people go from civil to exploding very quickly, especially if they're not the viewpoint character). Boredom is a good excuse for skipping over things and plugging some description in instead.

- I use a lack of contractions to indicate a non-english speaker. I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing (it's got to trump writing out accents, though, especially when you don't bother for the default dialect), but I do do it for all non-english speakers, which probably isn't terribly helpful.

- I write short pieces and vignettes, and forget that the information in them doesn't appear in the main novel. I enjoy writing them because I don't even have to pretend there's a plot. I like Significant Moments. I just don't like working them into the main text. It's why I like writing fanfiction, I guess.

- I don't edit short stuff (I often type things straight into LJ these days), and I get so wraped up in editting long stuff that I don't write anything new. See: Greenhelm, Children's story. I almost never use beta-readers (dun dun daaaaah). Too impatient. Thus, I suffer from typos.

- Odd sentence structure. I love it. Speech tends to be fragmentary, but I also have a tendency to play with syntax and clauses (and I split infinitives with abandon). I, I must admit, love clauses in odd places within a sentence, but I suspect, with reasonable evidence, that I do it too often. It's certainly not great for flow. A paragraph where every sentence is broken at least once, either by a clause or a semi-colon, is both typical and Not Good. I also love throwing italics about for emphasis, but I don't always get it right. I also like starting setnences with words like "also" and "thus"; I think that's probably got something to do with my own speech patterns. I mumble a bit at the beginning of sentences, so it's good to have a non-essential verbal run up, even if it doesn't always make sense. And, mmm, imperatives.

- I love it when I can visualise the way a paragaph ought to look, especially how speech ought to be laid out, and I have an innate sense of punctuation thanks to an old English teacher. I can't always visualise layout, but when I can it just fits. It's why I love doing the magazine; I use what I've been taught most of the time, but when it comes naturally I don't want to deny it. This month's interior cover is a bit like that: I know there needs to be a small photo, with rich colours, in a certain place, even though I don't actually have a photo I can use there.



Your go! Also, comment. Am I right about myself?




Simultaneous speech. How do you convey it without priviledging one statement over the other? Or am I asking the impossible for text?
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
Also, it's the same actions over and over. All the show-don't-tell has left me with a group of actions that I use as shorthands for emotions, but they don't always show the same emotion (which is realistic, but when the one character uses the same action twice in one conversation for two different things, and another uses it in response for something else entirely, it's kinda meaningless). Characters are constantly tilting and cocking their heads, chewing on their lips, and tugging on their own hair. I have to watch myself to make sure I don't use any of them more than once in a section, and not by multiple different people in a chapter. All my characters are bald with terrible neck strain and ragged lips.

I identify with every single word in this paragraph.

- I don't like finishing things or declaring finished things done. I never submit things places because I'm waiting for some magical day when I'm done learning to write, and I can go back and edit things in the knowledge that at no point will I look back at them and wish they were different.

And this one. It's one of the reasons I almost never edit anything. And if I actually make it to a point where I'm "finished" with something it's usually because I'm SICK TO DEATH OF IT, not because it's anywhere near polished enough.

- I love plotting, but suck at plots. I don't like endings, specifically, and I can't handle climaxes, so I take something deeply generic and shove it in instead.

YOU ACTUALLY ARE ME. ADMIT IT. WE ARE CLONES. WRITELY CLONES.

I like writing about anger, and fights

Extremes of emotion are a lot easier to write about and people being nice to each other are boring.

- I don't edit short stuff (I often type things straight into LJ these days), and I get so wraped up in editting long stuff that I don't write anything new. See: Greenhelm, Children's story. I almost never use beta-readers (dun dun daaaaah). Too impatient. Thus, I suffer from typos.

YES. Yes. Yes. Just general nodding in agreement here.

I, I must admit, love clauses in odd places within a sentence, but I suspect, with reasonable evidence, that I do it too often.

God, likewise. If I've been writing something in a notebook and come to type it up I often have to spend five minutes restructuring the sentence so that the clause ends up in a sane place. Otherwise they just go wherever it was they occurred to me. The other nasty habit that has cropped up recently is an obsession with "whom" and not ending a sentence with a preposition. Of all the stupid grammatical rules to care about!

I have an innate sense of punctuation thanks to an old English teacher.

I envy you that. I had literally no taught English lessons between the ages of 13 and nearly 17 and it really fucking shows.

Simultaneous speech. How do you convey it without priviledging one statement over the other? Or am I asking the impossible for text?

You're asking the impossible, I think. You *could* use a nonstandard trick like having them both on the same line or breaking them up

word

by

word

and interlocking, but I think that falls under the heading of "wanky".
ext_3522: (Default)
From: [identity profile] minervasolo.livejournal.com
And if I actually make it to a point where I'm "finished" with something it's usually because I'm SICK TO DEATH OF IT, not because it's anywhere near polished enough.

I edit because I get bored. It's the endings-hate thing. I get stuck, so I go back to the beginning, and rehash all the safe stuff I've already written, which requires much less thought. I've been rewriting Greenhelm since I was thirteen; I'm at the same stage, plotewise, as I was then.

I think I've probably absorbed some of your writing style over the years I've been reading your stuff; you probably write more often (and more obviously) than anyone else I know, even when youhave got writer's block. The Sorka stuff inspired me to have a go at one of those prompt tables myself which languishes on my info page, probably never to be completed and play around with fiction in a "I don't have to have a plot or an ending" kind of way.

If I've been writing something in a notebook and come to type it up I often have to spend five minutes restructuring the sentence so that the clause ends up in a sane place

I move my clauses about constantly. I like the feeling of interrupting oneself, and the things it does to pacing. Not so much the things it does to sense, though.

I had literally no taught English lessons between the ages of 13 and nearly 17 and it really fucking shows.

One day, I'm going to dig out my 13 year old self's english notes. Luckily, a lot of it has sunk in on a not-thinking-about-it level, because my only conscious memories are that there were (I think) seven uses of commas, two of semi-colons and two of colons (and some of hyphens, and full stops, too). Apparently punctuation and grammar aren't actually on the curriculum; I was lucky to get a teacher who'd been going for 26 years and didn't care. We sent an entire term on punctuation (though not so much grammar in general). I've picked up a lot from reading, as well; not so much the good stuff as the bad, because I'm looking at it and it feels wrong, and I have to go and research to find out why. While there is a certain amount of leeway with these things, the rules are there because they make sense in English.
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
Ah, when I get stuck I start writing something else, which explains why I have about a billionty stories in varying stages of "I reached the middle and couldn't hack the crescendo".

you probably write more often (and more obviously) than anyone else I know

Actually I feel like knowledge is draining out of my ears and being replaced by fluff at the moment - the most knowledgable person *I* know is [livejournal.com profile] machineplay, who birches her own writing so viciously it's like watching a sport in action.

Prompts are good for that. I still want to finish the [livejournal.com profile] 100originalfics one (I've done 50) for the Hamiltwins as it really does help expand the universe/characters. For me, anyway. I imagine other people can work out things like that without having to write it as story.

Apparently punctuation and grammar aren't actually on the curriculum

Newp. I was in the second year of my degree when they got someone in to teach us about essay structure as none of us had actually learnt it at school, and then we hijacked his lessons to make him teach us grammar. Sadly we only got about four classes with him.

not so much the good stuff as the bad, because I'm looking at it and it feels wrong

I'm kind of worried that I've lost my sense for that. The very few rules I can remember are that parenthetical punctuation must be used like tongs to pick out a subclause - if you make a parenthetical clause the sentence has to make sense if you remove it. That's it. That and "object, verb, subject" which means nothing to me as I never know which is the subject and which the object. I find it fascinating that I've been speaking this language for twenty-three years and writing it for twenty and I still have no clue how it works.
ext_3522: (Default)
From: [identity profile] minervasolo.livejournal.com
"I reached the middle and couldn't hack the crescendo".

I tend to stop before the middle, because even that looks hard. Or I just have miles and miles of middle.

I#vebeen trying somrthing new, recently, where I deliberately don't think about overarching plot. It's cheesy 50s pulp thing, so I've decided that every chapter must end with some kind of clifhanger. It's no doubt shit for pacing and structure and so on (there won't be a crescendo, because I can only do one level of *gasp* and I'm using it over and over) but it does make it easier to keep going. Well, for now, anyway.

I imagine other people can work out things like that without having to write it as story.

I usually have to write it to see what's going on, especially for world building. While m characterisation really only changes in rewrites, things like "where the mountains are" need prompts to make me think about it.

I struggle, though, with prompts and short stories. I want to write short stories, but all the big scary climax and ending things are still there, just sooner, and the temptation to just do a short 'character moment' or 'worldbuilding moment' is very great. I almost never write anything over three pages in length, and it never goes anywhere. I used to be able to, I remember. I have tons of short stories on my harddrive. Most of them are drivel (thank you, thirteen year old self, for angsty elves), but they're there. That the short stories I attempt to write a completely different in genre from the long stuff isn't quite so much an issue, but does reflect the difference in my reading material. I admit, it's partly because I want suff to enter into competition or submit for publishing, but it would be nice to just have something that wasn't "here is a segment of an ongoing work" or "here is a bit of mindvomit".

That and "object, verb, subject" which means nothing to me as I never know which is the subject and which the object.

I still don't know, and I did latin. Almost everyone I know complains that the only grammar they ever learnt was through foreign languages. The system is utterly arse-backwards.

(I admit, I am replying because I spotted your lj post, but I did intend to anyway. I'm just being hugely disorganised, and constantly almost late for work. Like now, actually).
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
I've decided that every chapter must end with some kind of clifhanger.

You may have noticed that's what I was doing with Bad Timing. It's a trick I picked up from Hardy Boys books, which is possibly the worst place on earth to pick up narrative tricks but what the fuck. :D

I usually have to write it to see what's going on, especially for world building.

Glad it's not just me. Often I don't know what something looks like unless someone asks me about it, and it kind of comes into focus as I'm describing it.

(thank you, thirteen year old self, for angsty elves)

At least you were only 13. I was 17. And 18. ARGH.

I really do agree with you on the grammar front. I think a lot more of the system does need to be devoted to teaching how to use English properly - I thought that's what the English Language classes were meant to be FOR - and that it should start a little earlier too. I just don't think we should gain our entire understanding of our own grammar from learning the grammar of another language especially if, like me, one never got to study another language at school.
ext_3522: (Default)
From: [identity profile] minervasolo.livejournal.com
Often I don't know what something looks like unless someone asks me about it, and it kind of comes into focus as I'm describing it.

A friend of mine has problems visualising her characters, and I've reccommended she try drawing them, or describing them in detail. Obviously, you don't want six paragraphs of loving detail about a character's lustrous hair and glowing eyes in text, but I find that unless I know exactly what a character looks like I can't make subtler references to appearance. Too much room for inconsistency. Until I start writing, though, I tend to have fairly amorphous characters, often even without names, unless I see someone and deliberately decide to give their attributes to that character.

At least you were only 13. I was 17. And 18. ARGH.

It's me that at 13 I could still complete things. By 18 I was still writing much the same stuff, but I never finished it. I'd say the internet cured me of my worst ills, but I've been online since I was eleven and never really got the hint until I started uni. Writing for the writing group made me more self-conscious about my writing, and though I try not to write with any particular audience in mind now, at least I'm aware I have an audience, and one who's probably as knowledgable about characterisation/cliches/the genre as I am.

I thought that's what the English Language classes were meant to be FOR

I don't think anyone knows what they're for; certainly not the curriculum setters. I was rather confused to find out that it was Eng Lang that had creative writing content, instead of Eng Lit, at A Level - surely writing literature comes under, well, literature? I have no clue what the Lang students did, other than study vowel sounds. Year 8 was a good point to study grammar in depth; I think any time early on in senior school is good. Doing Spanish taught me a bit about tenses (even with the grammar, we still only did 'past', 'present' and 'future' in English, compared with all the 'perfect', 'imperfect' and 'pluperfect' stuff in Spanish) but Latin was what really gave me a grasp of how language works, which I suppose is one of the points of the subject. It is ridiculous that we try and teach other languages like they were mathematical forumlas (subject + object + verb (stem+ending) = sentence) and our own like writings is some utterly innate ability that you just have to grow into. Maybe if we knew our own grammar better, we wouldn't have such difficulty learning other languages'.
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
Mm, I find that if I can't visualise, I can't describe - being asked questions really does help as having someone waiting for the answer provides you with this ... expectation of a response. It may only work for me, of course, because I am a glib motherfucker who feels she has to have an answer to everything. ;)

I tend to have fairly amorphous characters, often even without names, unless I see someone and deliberately decide to give their attributes to that character.

Likewise. Sorka changed race, hair-colour and background twice and Iain had no name for ages.

I think I stopped completing things long before then - the only way I could ever finish a story was to kill off the main character. Oh, there was the one story that I basically ripped off from Martin Of Redwall but other than that things just plodded on and on without end. Hrm. No, wait, there was the so-called novel when I was 16. Took me a year to write 60,000 words and almost all of them were crap. But it was nicely-visualised and some of the supporting cast may be worth saving if I can get over my aversion to fantasy.

Maybe if we knew our own grammar better, we wouldn't have such difficulty learning other languages'.

Serious Amen to that. We didn't do perfect, imperfect or pluperfect with English, so I still have no real idea what they're for despite cursory examinations of various Latin textbooks and Lynne Truss's thingy.

Latin was what really gave me a grasp of how language works, which I suppose is one of the points of the subject

In fact I believe that's why most places still teach it, beyond tradition - it does give you that base. Even the very, very little I know has been endlessly helpful in determining the meanings of English words.
ext_3522: (Default)
From: [identity profile] minervasolo.livejournal.com
Expectation of a response really does sound right. It's the really handy thing about a writing group; being asked a question directly about something means you have to have a decent explanation, rather than "Oh, I'm hoping readers won't worry about that".

I don't know if finishing the first book in a trilogy counts, because I've finished the same first book three times now, but still haven't got passed the first couple of chapters of the sequel. Once I've finished the current rewrite, I'm not going to allow myself to edit it again, because it's reaching a point where I'm editting it in order to not worry about writing anything new.

I went on a punctuation.grammar hunt a little while ago, to confirm some stuff for myself. I found Correct Punctuation (http://www.correctpunctuation.co.uk/) and Correct Grammar (http://www.grammaticallycorrect.co.uk/). Though some of it makes me flinch because it's not how I learnt it (pluperfect, not past perfect, and imperfect, not continuous, for example), they're pretty good sites. I'm glad latin solidified a lot of grammar for me, and I'm glad that that's why it's still taught in a lot of places, but despite my latin squee I think I'd still rather they taught the grammar in english, even if my dead language became even more dead.
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
Ah, thanks for those links, I shall shove them in my ever-increasing links file!

And yes, basically. If someone asks about inconsistencies you can iron them out ([livejournal.com profile] ruthi and [livejournal.com profile] flutterbyeaten have been invaluable at going "I'm probably being stupid, but" and it usually turns out that I'm the one being stupid) rather than often not noticing them at all. Gyah. Good readers are such a valuable resource there ought to be a website for them.

I'm not going to allow myself to edit it again, because it's reaching a point where I'm editting it in order to not worry about writing anything new

I have the opposite problem. I will continue writing new things, more and more new projects, until I'm suffocating under them - rather than go back and edit anything.

Date: 20/2/08 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] quenya-tattoo.livejournal.com
You know, this is a really good subject. Every now and then, to avoid the aforementioned Effect, I think every writer should really step back, take a deep breath, and look at things that they need to work on. Even when happy with their writing over all... there are still things that bother us every day, but we just kinda roll over in an attempt to GET SHIT DONE.

A lot of your notes apply to me as well. The unlikely verbs, for one, that seem to make sense at the time. Unlike you, I am terrible at dialogue, because I don't have much of it in life, and when I do its with weirdos who speak odd English-- such as uber nerds or... you know, my husband, who speaks that funky Indian English. I try and note dialogue a lot when I read certain people-- you're one of them.

Extra interesting is the idea of visualizing a paragraph. I like the way a complete paragraph looks, particularly when it contains both dialogue and description, but I've never even though of visualizing it beforehand. I can see how this would be brilliant for a magazine however-- my aunt is a freelance graphic designer who does a lot of page layout, and she talks about something like this sometimes. It sounds brilliant, I'd love to be able to manage it!

This is a topic that bears thinking about though. God knows I have a laundry list, I've just never bothered to solidify it.

Date: 20/2/08 06:35 pm (UTC)
ext_3522: (Default)
From: [identity profile] minervasolo.livejournal.com
I'm flattered that you find my dialogue helpful ^_^ I'd love to know someone well who speaks "funky Indian English", or anything, really, other than standard British English. All my characters have very RP accents in my head, so when I want to make it clear that someone has an accent other than that I... mostly flail. I write accents based solely on the way other people write them, since I don't hear these accents myself (both in the sense of not registering that they're different to my own, and in the sense that I don't know many people with accents noticeably different to my own).

Date: 23/2/08 03:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
I'd love to know someone well who speaks "funky Indian English"

My boss is wonderful for this, FYI. His English is fantastic.

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